My views on lying are similar to your friend’s. Thanks for having a charitable reaction.
After reading some of the attitudes in this thread, I find it disconcerting to think that a friend might suddenly view me as having inscrutable or dangerous psychology, if they found out that I believe in white lies in limited situations, like the vast majority of humans. It’s distressing that upon finding this out, that they might so confused about my ethics or behavior patterns… even though presumably, since they were friends with me, they had a positive impression of my ethics and behavior before.
Maybe finding out that a friend is willing to lie causes you to change your picture of their ethics (rhetorical “you”). But why is it news that they lie sometimes? The vast majority of people do. Typical human is typical.
Maybe the worry is that if you don’t know the criteria by which your friends lie, then they might lie to you without you expecting it.
If so, then perhaps there are ways to improve your theory of mind regarding your friends, and then avoid being deceived. You could ask your friends about their beliefs about ethics, or try to discover common reasons or principles behind “white lies.” While people vary on their beliefs about lying, there is probably a lot of intersubjectivity. Just because someone isn’t aware of intersubjective beliefs about the acceptability of lying, it doesn’t mean that their neurotypical friends are capricious about lying. (Of course, if future evidence shows that everyone lies in completely unpredictable ways, then I would change my view.)
For example, if you know that your friend lies in response to compliment-fishing, then you can avoid fishing for compliments from them, or discount their answers if you do. If you know that your friend lies to people he believes are trying to exploit him, then you don’t need to be worried about him lying to you, unless (a) you plan on exploiting him, or (b) you worry that he might think that you are exploiting him even if you aren’t, and he lies rather than notify you.
If that’s the case, then the real worry should be that your friend might feel antagonized by you without you realizing it and without him being able to talk to you about it. As long as you have good reasons to believe that you won’t have conflict with your friend, or work it out if conflict occurs, then your friend lying for adversarial reasons is probably not likely.
Just because your friends don’t give you (rhetorical “you”) an exhaustive list of the situations where they might lie, or a formalized set of principles, it doesn’t mean that you are in the dark about when they might lie, unless your theory of their mind leaves you in the dark about their behavior in general.
Means, motive, opportunity: they’ve demonstrated that they have the means, that while they dislike lying they’re not absolutely opposed to it, and there would certainly have been plenty of opportunities for them to lie to me. And while I cannot imagine a reason for them to lie to me, I also don’t have a full understanding of how their mind works, so I must take into account the possibility of something unforeseen.
As you correctly observe in your excellent trust post, unforeseen circumstances are always a possibility in relationships. I think your post leads to the conclusion that trusting a person is related to your theory of mind regarding them.
Never-lies vs believes-that-at-least-some-lies-are-justified is probably not a very useful way to reduce unforeseen conflict. Someone who says that they “never lie” could have a different definition of “lies” than you. They might be very good at telling the literal truth in deceptive way. They might change their ethical view of lying without telling you. They might lie accidentally. Or they might be lying that they “never lie,” or they may be speaking figuratively (and mean “I never lie about the important stuff”).
The most useful distinctions between people is not if they will lie, but when. Predicting when your friends might lie is not just a function of your friends behavior, it’s also a function of your theory of mind.
My views on lying are similar to your friend’s. Thanks for having a charitable reaction.
After reading some of the attitudes in this thread, I find it disconcerting to think that a friend might suddenly view me as having inscrutable or dangerous psychology, if they found out that I believe in white lies in limited situations, like the vast majority of humans. It’s distressing that upon finding this out, that they might so confused about my ethics or behavior patterns… even though presumably, since they were friends with me, they had a positive impression of my ethics and behavior before.
Maybe finding out that a friend is willing to lie causes you to change your picture of their ethics (rhetorical “you”). But why is it news that they lie sometimes? The vast majority of people do. Typical human is typical.
Maybe the worry is that if you don’t know the criteria by which your friends lie, then they might lie to you without you expecting it.
If so, then perhaps there are ways to improve your theory of mind regarding your friends, and then avoid being deceived. You could ask your friends about their beliefs about ethics, or try to discover common reasons or principles behind “white lies.” While people vary on their beliefs about lying, there is probably a lot of intersubjectivity. Just because someone isn’t aware of intersubjective beliefs about the acceptability of lying, it doesn’t mean that their neurotypical friends are capricious about lying. (Of course, if future evidence shows that everyone lies in completely unpredictable ways, then I would change my view.)
For example, if you know that your friend lies in response to compliment-fishing, then you can avoid fishing for compliments from them, or discount their answers if you do. If you know that your friend lies to people he believes are trying to exploit him, then you don’t need to be worried about him lying to you, unless (a) you plan on exploiting him, or (b) you worry that he might think that you are exploiting him even if you aren’t, and he lies rather than notify you.
If that’s the case, then the real worry should be that your friend might feel antagonized by you without you realizing it and without him being able to talk to you about it. As long as you have good reasons to believe that you won’t have conflict with your friend, or work it out if conflict occurs, then your friend lying for adversarial reasons is probably not likely.
Just because your friends don’t give you (rhetorical “you”) an exhaustive list of the situations where they might lie, or a formalized set of principles, it doesn’t mean that you are in the dark about when they might lie, unless your theory of their mind leaves you in the dark about their behavior in general.
As you correctly observe in your excellent trust post, unforeseen circumstances are always a possibility in relationships. I think your post leads to the conclusion that trusting a person is related to your theory of mind regarding them.
Never-lies vs believes-that-at-least-some-lies-are-justified is probably not a very useful way to reduce unforeseen conflict. Someone who says that they “never lie” could have a different definition of “lies” than you. They might be very good at telling the literal truth in deceptive way. They might change their ethical view of lying without telling you. They might lie accidentally. Or they might be lying that they “never lie,” or they may be speaking figuratively (and mean “I never lie about the important stuff”).
The most useful distinctions between people is not if they will lie, but when. Predicting when your friends might lie is not just a function of your friends behavior, it’s also a function of your theory of mind.