It took me a few minutes to see what you meant there. I read ‘quotes’ as a simple plural. Which leads to a parsing of your first sentence as a position of some merit purely by accident.
And sadly sometimes used as an argument against life extension.
Really? Well, I suppose that would actually make sense according to a certain not-outright-insane value system.
It would be bad even if the premise were true. Then the pure idea of ‘yeah, we have to let you all die because otherwise all the shiny new ideas would not prosper’ is so much out of proportion. Most people do not even work in idea maintaining, but do pretty mundane jobs, or moonlight as grandparents.
Over time I notice the occasional instance of ageism in young people. It is very easy to ignore collected experiences of others, and in some cases bad.
It would be awesome to have people still around that lived through history. Instead each generation to some degree forgets what was before.
It hurts me each time someone (my age or younger) claims how he does not care about history at all, because -
The premise is true and generally accepted as such; a slightly more formal treatment was given by Kuhn, but it amounts roughly to “new scientists produce advancements, old scientists stick to dogma, the status of oldies is so powerful they have to die or retire for advancements to prosper.”
Shortly after “Structure of Scientific Revolutions”, there was a paradigm shift in geology: plate tectonics. Which went from fringe to scientific consensus in, as I understand it, well under a decade thanks to overwhelming evidence. Did unusually many geologists die that decade?
I hope there have been some changes in the way scientists work since the 1960s. Also I hope that it depends on the specific field.
As a conclusion of the initial argument one could add time limits to tenure, but please lets not argue for killing off scientists justs for being to old.
Try to get someone to put it in these words. Usually no one demands the killing of professors, or even mentions how he likes to have old people die from neglect.
If someone boldly states that he wants all these old people to die to free up space, or what ever, than you probably found a person you do not actually want to have a discussion with.
I hope there have been some changes in the way scientists work since the 1960s.
I completely forgot about a very important point. When rejuvenation actually works, then it might also make the brain work better, younger and so on.
If it is true, that great scientists do their most important work before reaching age X, then after a rejuvenation they might be able to do even more with their good as new brain + more experience.
Then it would not be a matter of getting rid of holders of old ideas, but find a way to deal with people that have an unreachable time advantage, that cannot be made up. It would be good for society to keep experienced mind in work.
No real need to kill them off, as long as new ones are being born. Unanimity is nice, but simple majorities can usually get the job done.
As for your time limits idea, I might go further, and send everybody back to school to get a new PhD every 100 years: in a new field, at a different school, in a different language.
Kuhn did not say that. His notion of paradigm advancement had a lot to do with a lot of other things. His canonical example of paradigm change (the Copernican revolution) had people actively changing their minds even in his narrative. And there are a lot of problems with his story of how things went, see for example this essay.
Furthermore, in many other shifts where new theories came into play, the overall trend happened with many old people accepting the new theory. Thus for example, Einstein’s special relativity was accepted by many older physicists.
...While Einstein himself rejected quantum mechanics!
(And, yes, I’m aware of the philosophical glitches in the Copenhagen Interpretation. But Einstein refused to accept QM on principle, and I’m not sure any evidence could have convinced him, which is rather poor form for one of the greatest thinkers of all time.)
This is probably wrong. If Einstein were transported to today we could almost certainly convince him of the correctness of quantum mechanics. Not only that, the guy did a lot of important quantum mechanics research, which should suggest that it’s not as simple as “he rejected it.” Wikipedia says that he initially thought matrix mechanics was wrong, but became convinced of it when it was shown to be equivalent to the Schroedinger forumulation.
Not only that, the guy did a lot of important quantum mechanics research, which should suggest that it’s as simple as “he rejected it.”
You are probably right on with this comment, but I think I may have misunderstood you on one point. Did you mean “it’s not as simple as ‘he rejected it.’ ”? The way it is now looks like it contradicts the rest of the post.
Also, I recall that Einstein did change his mind at least one important point, the existence of the “cosmological constant.” So that implies he wasn’t especially close-minded.
No. It is more a case of ‘history is old stuff, that happened a long time ago, is done & over with, and does not matter any more’. Why care about the past when so much is happening right now.
I do not think the way history is dealt with is that much better, to some degree visiting historic museums or sites is just signaling.
I do not think the way history is dealt with is that much better, to some degree visiting historic museums or sites is just signaling.
That is basically the concept behind ‘costly signalling’, that people will pay time and money to visit a museum in order to signal, and in doing so accidentally learn something about history.
It took me a few minutes to see what you meant there. I read ‘quotes’ as a simple plural. Which leads to a parsing of your first sentence as a position of some merit purely by accident.
Really? Well, I suppose that would actually make sense according to a certain not-outright-insane value system.
It would be bad even if the premise were true. Then the pure idea of ‘yeah, we have to let you all die because otherwise all the shiny new ideas would not prosper’ is so much out of proportion. Most people do not even work in idea maintaining, but do pretty mundane jobs, or moonlight as grandparents.
Over time I notice the occasional instance of ageism in young people. It is very easy to ignore collected experiences of others, and in some cases bad. It would be awesome to have people still around that lived through history. Instead each generation to some degree forgets what was before.
It hurts me each time someone (my age or younger) claims how he does not care about history at all, because -
And in middle aged people and old people too. :)
The premise is true and generally accepted as such; a slightly more formal treatment was given by Kuhn, but it amounts roughly to “new scientists produce advancements, old scientists stick to dogma, the status of oldies is so powerful they have to die or retire for advancements to prosper.”
Shortly after “Structure of Scientific Revolutions”, there was a paradigm shift in geology: plate tectonics. Which went from fringe to scientific consensus in, as I understand it, well under a decade thanks to overwhelming evidence. Did unusually many geologists die that decade?
I hope there have been some changes in the way scientists work since the 1960s. Also I hope that it depends on the specific field.
As a conclusion of the initial argument one could add time limits to tenure, but please lets not argue for killing off scientists justs for being to old.
Nice way to put it! To phrase it another way:
To argue in favor of mortality because of fears of entrenched conservatives is to demand capital punishment where term limits would suffice.
Thank you!
Try to get someone to put it in these words. Usually no one demands the killing of professors, or even mentions how he likes to have old people die from neglect.
If someone boldly states that he wants all these old people to die to free up space, or what ever, than you probably found a person you do not actually want to have a discussion with.
I completely forgot about a very important point. When rejuvenation actually works, then it might also make the brain work better, younger and so on. If it is true, that great scientists do their most important work before reaching age X, then after a rejuvenation they might be able to do even more with their good as new brain + more experience. Then it would not be a matter of getting rid of holders of old ideas, but find a way to deal with people that have an unreachable time advantage, that cannot be made up. It would be good for society to keep experienced mind in work.
No real need to kill them off, as long as new ones are being born. Unanimity is nice, but simple majorities can usually get the job done.
As for your time limits idea, I might go further, and send everybody back to school to get a new PhD every 100 years: in a new field, at a different school, in a different language.
You’re only going to give me 100 years to study mathematics, uninterrupted?
B-b-but! That’s nowhere near enough time!
I am happy to see how it will turn out
This might be the answer you are looking for.
Kuhn did not say that. His notion of paradigm advancement had a lot to do with a lot of other things. His canonical example of paradigm change (the Copernican revolution) had people actively changing their minds even in his narrative. And there are a lot of problems with his story of how things went, see for example this essay.
Furthermore, in many other shifts where new theories came into play, the overall trend happened with many old people accepting the new theory. Thus for example, Einstein’s special relativity was accepted by many older physicists.
...While Einstein himself rejected quantum mechanics!
(And, yes, I’m aware of the philosophical glitches in the Copenhagen Interpretation. But Einstein refused to accept QM on principle, and I’m not sure any evidence could have convinced him, which is rather poor form for one of the greatest thinkers of all time.)
This is probably wrong. If Einstein were transported to today we could almost certainly convince him of the correctness of quantum mechanics. Not only that, the guy did a lot of important quantum mechanics research, which should suggest that it’s not as simple as “he rejected it.” Wikipedia says that he initially thought matrix mechanics was wrong, but became convinced of it when it was shown to be equivalent to the Schroedinger forumulation.
You are probably right on with this comment, but I think I may have misunderstood you on one point. Did you mean “it’s not as simple as ‘he rejected it.’ ”? The way it is now looks like it contradicts the rest of the post.
Also, I recall that Einstein did change his mind at least one important point, the existence of the “cosmological constant.” So that implies he wasn’t especially close-minded.
Hah, yes. Typos strike again. Fixed.
because—there are not enough elves and wizardesses in that genre of story?
No. It is more a case of ‘history is old stuff, that happened a long time ago, is done & over with, and does not matter any more’. Why care about the past when so much is happening right now.
I do not think the way history is dealt with is that much better, to some degree visiting historic museums or sites is just signaling.
That is basically the concept behind ‘costly signalling’, that people will pay time and money to visit a museum in order to signal, and in doing so accidentally learn something about history.
thx for the reminder
Yes.