With regard to the social policy question- the right groupings are the ones you’re talking about setting social policy for.
As far as social policy goes, it seems to me that it’s people who are most upset about the black/white IQ gap who are also most insistent on making use of these groups. For example by counting the number of blacks versus whites who pass a firefighters’ examination and insisting that the examination must be unfair in some way because blacks fail the exam disproportionately.
In a world with anti-discrimination laws that specifically apply to race, it’s totally reasonable to compare those groups in terms of IQ and reasonably ask how much of the difference is due to genetics.
Since your choice of groupings is not helpful in answering scientific or policy questions. And since intelligence is constantly used in judging someone’s value—people will justifiably suspect you of choosing these groups in order to make judgments about how valuable they are.
Assuming that’s all true, so what? It doesn’t change the fact that there is a black/white IQ gap and one can ask whether the gap is largely genetic in origin.
Indeed, the fact that you are questioning my motivations and talking about “centuries of subjugation and oppression” illustrates my original point very well.
Something is real if it figures in our best scientific theory of the relevant domain
neutrinos, Homo Sapiens, Helium, the Dravidian language group, ribosomes, spacetime, Tectonic plates, igneous rock, the mesosphere, Jupiter, the Inca, Abraham Lincoln.
Assuming that’s all true, so what? It doesn’t change the fact that there is a black/white IQ gap and one can ask whether the gap is largely genetic in origin.
I’m not arguing the question with you. I gave that up a long time ago. I’m asking you to use scientifically respectable, non-racist terminology when you talk about group difference and IQ. You can easily state your hypothesis in scientifically recognized terms.
And what scientific theories are these categories part of?
I really don’t think science has much to do with the bulk (or strength) of objections you will get on this subject. You’re doing yourself no good by continuing to argue about it. Even the terrible arguments made against you will receive positive support by virtue of being sandwitched between two of yours—reading need not be involved.
It is probably better to make the ethnic-group references a bit more specific than a two category split. It is fairly clear what ‘black/white’ labels refer to in countries with two clear dominant ethnic groups of appropriate melanin levels but less useful if trying for a worldwide reference. Then the references become more ambiguous. I suggest making your stand somewhere a bit more secure than the ‘black’ word. Your main point is a bit deeper than that.
I really don’t think science has much to do with the bulk (or strength) of objections you will get on this subject.
I agree. The problem is that people see “racism” as evil, hurtful, low status, etc. Just like they viewed atheism that way a few hundred years ago. Which is kinda the point.
And what scientific theories are these categories part of?
Google it.
Why should I?
Because you don’t like hurting people? Because racism is evil? Because racism is low status? Because you would look less stupid? Because it would be less embarrassing for all of Less Wrong? Because you prefer to avoid downvotes?
It’s not really my responsibility to do research trying to figure out what you mean by “real entity.” Is “elephants” a “real entity”? What about “worms”? Is “the South” a real entity? What about “Minnesota”?
Because you don’t like hurting people? Because racism is evil? Because racism is low status? Because you would look less stupid? Because it would be less embarrassing for all of Less Wrong? Because you prefer to avoid downvotes?
This illustrates my point very well. A few hundred years ago, someone might have argued that atheism is hurtful, evil, low status, embarassing, and makes you look stupid. But none of these things affect the fundamental correctness or incorrectness of atheism.
It’s not really my responsibility to do research trying to figure out what you mean by “real entity.” Is “elephants” a “real entity”? What about “worms”? Is “the South” a real entity? What about “Minnesota”?
You asked “What scientific theories are these categories from?” For most of the examples I gave this answer was obvious and had you not before heard of, say, ribosomes, you could google and quickly determine a ribosome is a entity from cell biology. You have a history of making people defend extended and irrelevant points so as to avoid ever conceding any point—so I don’t take your request at face value. And if you don’t already know ‘Helium’ comes from chemistry then you need to drastically reduce your confidence in lots of your beliefs. By way of analogy, matter was once believed to consist of five elements. It turned out Aristotelian cosmology was not a theory that helped us answer many important questions so we stopped believing in quintessence. Similarly, “blacks, whites, reds and yellows” is not a theory of human genetic difference at all adequate for answering interesting questions in population genetics or anthropology.
The preposterous thing about this is that I don’t actually strongly disagree with your position. I think you’re wildly overconfident but I don’t think and have never said that positing group IQ differences due to genetics along groups that roughly correspond to some traditional racial categories is by definition racist or even likely to be wrong.
This illustrates my point very well. A few hundred years ago, someone might have argued that atheism is hurtful, evil, low status, embarassing, and makes you look stupid. But none of these things affect the fundamental correctness or incorrectness of atheism.
For the third time: it is the way you talk about these issues involving race, genetics and IQ that is hurtful, low status, etc. You seem to be under the misconception that because (you think) your beliefs are true you have the right to offend people when you share them. This may be the case if people are offended by the content of the beliefs. But it is not the case when people are offended by the way you state your beliefs. Less Wrong would not tolerate posts of the kind one finds at r/atheism despite nearly everyone here agreeing with their propositional content. Those posts would get downvoted because they do not rise to Less Wrong standards- despite being trivially true. I don’t think it is too great a burden on people discussing this issue that they have a passing familiarity with population genetics and anthropology.
″ For most of the examples I gave this answer was obvious
I limited my request to two of the “real entities” you named. “Homo Sapiens” and the “Dravidian Language Group.”
It’s not obvious to me what scientific theories these categories come from and I will not guess at what you mean.
I also asked you whether “elephants,” “worms” “The South,” or “Minnesota” are “real entities.” You have not answered my question.
I also asked you to state a particular hypothesis in “scientific terms,” which you apparently think would be easy. You have not done so.
In short, I am trying to figure out your point and you are not making it easy for me.
as to avoid ever conceding any point
Exactly what point do you think I should concede?
Similarly, “blacks, whites, reds and yellows” is not a theory of human genetic difference at all adequate for answering interesting questions in population genetics or anthropology.
Even assuming this is true, it doesn’t change the fact that the black/white IQ gap is largely due to genetics. In short, it’s a red herring.
Let me ask you this:
Suppose I divide up human beings into three races:
Race 1: Ethnic Swedes plus people born in Maine;
Race 2: Ethnic Japanese plus people born in Sri Lanka;
Race 3: Everyone else.
Would you agree that this racial division is “inadequate foranswering interesting questions in population genetics or anthropology.”?
For the third time: it is the way you talk about these issues involving race, genetics and IQ that is hurtful, low status, etc
Lol, the exact point of raising the genetic basis of the black/white IQ difference is because it is considered one of the most offensive, hurtful things to say in the West in the 21st century.
But none of these things affect the fundamental correctness or incorrectness of atheism.
If atheists had not kowtowed to popular opinion as some wish you would, more would have been burned at the stake; more effort would have been put into refutations of atheism, and more time spent on indoctrination of religion as right and atheists as evil non-humans. It’s possible that this could have meant that today there would not be places where the fundamental correctness of atheism could be asserted. In many ways atheism thrives only because religions put so little effort into competing!
By the same token, the net effect of pissing off a portion of LessWrong by using fundamentally correct “racist” terminology may push back recognition of such fundamental correctness. In aggregate it may solidify political correctness into an unassailable fortress!
Something about this pro-appeasement argument strikes me as really wrong, though I wish I were able to better explain why. It just seems to me that the people historically interested in the rule of religion—say, Church hierarchy—would find it better for their agendas that any closet atheists should keep kowtowing rather than become vocal about their disbelief. Surely if nobody ever challenged orthodox ideas, they’d never get overturned?
Well, I’m no historian. But in any case, if a medievial equivalent of Less Wrong, some group of people unusually interested in forming true beliefs formed in those times, then they should be able to discuss atheism at least among themselves, surely. It would be contrary to their common goal to do otherwise. It might prevent them from figuring out that atheism is probably correct, you see.
Sure, atheism may be low status and immoral and evil and “not useful” to know about if true—but if for whatever reason they already decided they are interested in forming true beliefs, then they should consider atheism anyway.
We’re on Less Wrong because we are unusually interested in pursuing true beliefs, and methods of forming them. If other factors such as political correctness or some people’s being sensitive about some topics or whatever get in the way of that, then so much the worse for those other factors. If we have to commit heresies and be offensive to our age’s moral fashions to get closer to truth, then let us commit heresies and be offensive.
Not that I’m in favor of alienating anyone for its own sake, or when it’s avoidable at negligible cost to the discussion’s clarity and usefulness (i.e. by phrasing things neutrally and not taking potshots). All I’m saying is, let’s not let get mind-killed too easily. Currently Less Wrong strikes me as the best place in the entire Internet to pursue intelligent, sane discussion, and possibly even change your mind. Even on topics that would never have a chance in other environments.
I agree largely with MarkusRamikin’s response, but I would add that you are basically speculating here. It’s also possible that if atheists had been more vocal, their views would have more quickly become tolerated.
I agree that highly emotional issues such as race and intelligence are problematic to discuss, but Eliezer kind of opened the door by talking about atheism as a test of rationality. Today, atheism is much more accepted, at least in the West, so it’s not as good as a test. That naturally leads to the question as to what our taboos are in America in the 21st century.
As far as social policy goes, it seems to me that it’s people who are most upset about the black/white IQ gap who are also most insistent on making use of these groups. For example by counting the number of blacks versus whites who pass a firefighters’ examination and insisting that the examination must be unfair in some way because blacks fail the exam disproportionately.
In a world with anti-discrimination laws that specifically apply to race, it’s totally reasonable to compare those groups in terms of IQ and reasonably ask how much of the difference is due to genetics.
Assuming that’s all true, so what? It doesn’t change the fact that there is a black/white IQ gap and one can ask whether the gap is largely genetic in origin.
Indeed, the fact that you are questioning my motivations and talking about “centuries of subjugation and oppression” illustrates my original point very well.
Can you provide a couple examples of this?
neutrinos, Homo Sapiens, Helium, the Dravidian language group, ribosomes, spacetime, Tectonic plates, igneous rock, the mesosphere, Jupiter, the Inca, Abraham Lincoln.
I’m not arguing the question with you. I gave that up a long time ago. I’m asking you to use scientifically respectable, non-racist terminology when you talk about group difference and IQ. You can easily state your hypothesis in scientifically recognized terms.
And what scientific theories are these categories part of?
Why should I?
Well, consider the hypothesis that the black/white IQ gap is due to racism. How would you state this in scientifically recognized terms?
I really don’t think science has much to do with the bulk (or strength) of objections you will get on this subject. You’re doing yourself no good by continuing to argue about it. Even the terrible arguments made against you will receive positive support by virtue of being sandwitched between two of yours—reading need not be involved.
It is probably better to make the ethnic-group references a bit more specific than a two category split. It is fairly clear what ‘black/white’ labels refer to in countries with two clear dominant ethnic groups of appropriate melanin levels but less useful if trying for a worldwide reference. Then the references become more ambiguous. I suggest making your stand somewhere a bit more secure than the ‘black’ word. Your main point is a bit deeper than that.
I agree. The problem is that people see “racism” as evil, hurtful, low status, etc. Just like they viewed atheism that way a few hundred years ago. Which is kinda the point.
I wish to explicitly distance myself from the analogy you use. The implications are not desirable (and in a way that is not quite accurate either).
Google it.
Because you don’t like hurting people? Because racism is evil? Because racism is low status? Because you would look less stupid? Because it would be less embarrassing for all of Less Wrong? Because you prefer to avoid downvotes?
I’m done.
It’s not really my responsibility to do research trying to figure out what you mean by “real entity.” Is “elephants” a “real entity”? What about “worms”? Is “the South” a real entity? What about “Minnesota”?
This illustrates my point very well. A few hundred years ago, someone might have argued that atheism is hurtful, evil, low status, embarassing, and makes you look stupid. But none of these things affect the fundamental correctness or incorrectness of atheism.
You asked “What scientific theories are these categories from?” For most of the examples I gave this answer was obvious and had you not before heard of, say, ribosomes, you could google and quickly determine a ribosome is a entity from cell biology. You have a history of making people defend extended and irrelevant points so as to avoid ever conceding any point—so I don’t take your request at face value. And if you don’t already know ‘Helium’ comes from chemistry then you need to drastically reduce your confidence in lots of your beliefs. By way of analogy, matter was once believed to consist of five elements. It turned out Aristotelian cosmology was not a theory that helped us answer many important questions so we stopped believing in quintessence. Similarly, “blacks, whites, reds and yellows” is not a theory of human genetic difference at all adequate for answering interesting questions in population genetics or anthropology.
The preposterous thing about this is that I don’t actually strongly disagree with your position. I think you’re wildly overconfident but I don’t think and have never said that positing group IQ differences due to genetics along groups that roughly correspond to some traditional racial categories is by definition racist or even likely to be wrong.
For the third time: it is the way you talk about these issues involving race, genetics and IQ that is hurtful, low status, etc. You seem to be under the misconception that because (you think) your beliefs are true you have the right to offend people when you share them. This may be the case if people are offended by the content of the beliefs. But it is not the case when people are offended by the way you state your beliefs. Less Wrong would not tolerate posts of the kind one finds at r/atheism despite nearly everyone here agreeing with their propositional content. Those posts would get downvoted because they do not rise to Less Wrong standards- despite being trivially true. I don’t think it is too great a burden on people discussing this issue that they have a passing familiarity with population genetics and anthropology.
This debate should look like the exchange between cupholder and steve hsu not, well this.
I limited my request to two of the “real entities” you named. “Homo Sapiens” and the “Dravidian Language Group.”
It’s not obvious to me what scientific theories these categories come from and I will not guess at what you mean.
I also asked you whether “elephants,” “worms” “The South,” or “Minnesota” are “real entities.” You have not answered my question.
I also asked you to state a particular hypothesis in “scientific terms,” which you apparently think would be easy. You have not done so.
In short, I am trying to figure out your point and you are not making it easy for me.
Exactly what point do you think I should concede?
Even assuming this is true, it doesn’t change the fact that the black/white IQ gap is largely due to genetics. In short, it’s a red herring.
Let me ask you this:
Suppose I divide up human beings into three races:
Race 1: Ethnic Swedes plus people born in Maine;
Race 2: Ethnic Japanese plus people born in Sri Lanka;
Race 3: Everyone else.
Would you agree that this racial division is “inadequate foranswering interesting questions in population genetics or anthropology.”?
Lol, the exact point of raising the genetic basis of the black/white IQ difference is because it is considered one of the most offensive, hurtful things to say in the West in the 21st century.
If atheists had not kowtowed to popular opinion as some wish you would, more would have been burned at the stake; more effort would have been put into refutations of atheism, and more time spent on indoctrination of religion as right and atheists as evil non-humans. It’s possible that this could have meant that today there would not be places where the fundamental correctness of atheism could be asserted. In many ways atheism thrives only because religions put so little effort into competing!
By the same token, the net effect of pissing off a portion of LessWrong by using fundamentally correct “racist” terminology may push back recognition of such fundamental correctness. In aggregate it may solidify political correctness into an unassailable fortress!
Something about this pro-appeasement argument strikes me as really wrong, though I wish I were able to better explain why. It just seems to me that the people historically interested in the rule of religion—say, Church hierarchy—would find it better for their agendas that any closet atheists should keep kowtowing rather than become vocal about their disbelief. Surely if nobody ever challenged orthodox ideas, they’d never get overturned?
Well, I’m no historian. But in any case, if a medievial equivalent of Less Wrong, some group of people unusually interested in forming true beliefs formed in those times, then they should be able to discuss atheism at least among themselves, surely. It would be contrary to their common goal to do otherwise. It might prevent them from figuring out that atheism is probably correct, you see.
Sure, atheism may be low status and immoral and evil and “not useful” to know about if true—but if for whatever reason they already decided they are interested in forming true beliefs, then they should consider atheism anyway.
We’re on Less Wrong because we are unusually interested in pursuing true beliefs, and methods of forming them. If other factors such as political correctness or some people’s being sensitive about some topics or whatever get in the way of that, then so much the worse for those other factors. If we have to commit heresies and be offensive to our age’s moral fashions to get closer to truth, then let us commit heresies and be offensive.
Not that I’m in favor of alienating anyone for its own sake, or when it’s avoidable at negligible cost to the discussion’s clarity and usefulness (i.e. by phrasing things neutrally and not taking potshots). All I’m saying is, let’s not let get mind-killed too easily. Currently Less Wrong strikes me as the best place in the entire Internet to pursue intelligent, sane discussion, and possibly even change your mind. Even on topics that would never have a chance in other environments.
I’d hate to see this quality diluted. For what?
I agree largely with MarkusRamikin’s response, but I would add that you are basically speculating here. It’s also possible that if atheists had been more vocal, their views would have more quickly become tolerated.
I agree that highly emotional issues such as race and intelligence are problematic to discuss, but Eliezer kind of opened the door by talking about atheism as a test of rationality. Today, atheism is much more accepted, at least in the West, so it’s not as good as a test. That naturally leads to the question as to what our taboos are in America in the 21st century.