When you find an explanation, how will you know that that was the explanation you were looking for?
I’m describing how the process of explaining qualia scientifically would look.
Science isn’t based on exactly predermining an explanation before you have it.
which in turn means you don’t actually know what you mean when you talk about qualia.
Says who? If I can tell that qualia are indescribable or undetectable, I must know something of “qualia” means. One of the problems with the Logical Positivist theory of meaning is tha it can’t be the whole story.
If as you say you don’t know in advance how to measure qualia, that means the explanation’s predictions can’t be tested against observations because we won’t know whether we are actually measuring qualia,
I said we dont know how to measure qualia, not that some device might be measuring something else. One could test a qualiometer on oneself.
which in turn means any explanation is a priori unfalsifiable.
L
If you exclude qualiometers , entirely subjective approaches and a few other things, you can’t have a standard scientific explanation. You can still have a philosophical explanation, such as qualia don’t exist, qualia are non physical, etc.
You need to know in advance how to describe and measure what you’re seeking to explain in such a way that a third party can use those descriptions and measurements to falsify an explanation, otherwise the falsity of any explanation depends on your personal sensibilities; somebody else may have different sensibilities and come to an equally legitimate yet contradictory decision.
But I’m not saying there is a scientific explanation of qualia
Presumably, we are in a shared reality here it is an objective matter of fact that we either have qualia or we don’t;
And if it is an objective fact that there is some irreducible subjectivity, it is clan objective fact that it doesn’t have a full scientific explanation.
it can’t be subjectively true and false at the same time, depending on who you are.
I don’t know who is suggesting that.
I’m not saying qualia don’t exist, but I am saying that without objective descriptions of qualia and the ability to measure them objectively we can’t tell the difference between qualia and something that doesn’t exist.
But you can notice your own qualia.. anaesthesia makes a difference.
Science isn’t based on exactly predermining an explanation before you have it.
But then how you would know that a given explanation, scientific or not, explains qualia to your satisfaction? How will you be able to tell that that explanation is indeed what you were looking for before?
If I can tell that qualia are indescribable or undetectable, I must know something of “qualia” means.
People have earnestly claimed the same thing about various deities. Do you believe in those? Why would your specific belief be true if theirs weren’t? Why are you so sure you’re not mistaken?
And if it is an objective fact that there is some irreducible subjectivity
Could be, but we don’t know that.
One could test a qualiometer on oneself.
How would you determine that it is working? That if you’re seeing something red, the qualiometer says “red”? If so, how would that show that there is something more going on than what’s explained with solutions to the Easy Problem?
it can’t be subjectively true and false at the same time, depending on who you are.
I don’t know who is suggesting that.
It’s a logical consequence of claiming there is no objective fact about something.
But you can notice your own qualia.. anaesthesia makes a difference.
Again, I agree with you that subjective experience exists, but I don’t see why solutions to the Easy Problem wouldn’t satisfy you. There’s something mysterious about subjective experience, but that’s true for everything, including atoms and electromagnetic waves and chairs and the rest of objective reality. Why does anything in the universe exist? It’s “why?” all the way down.
But then how you would know that a given explanation, scientific or not, explains qualia to your satisfaction?
You keep asking the same question. If we are talking about scientific explanation: a scientific explanation of X succeeds if it is able to predict X’s, particularly novel ones, and it doesn’t mispredict X’s.
A scientific explanation of qualia is exactly that with X=qualia. It’s not a different style of explanation. It may well be impossible, but that’s another story.
As for a philosophical explanation...well, how do you know? You have some philosophical account, probably along the lines of qualia don;’t exist or aren’t meaningful, although you refuse to say which. So you have some criteria for judging that to be the best explanation.
If I can tell that qualia are indescribable or undetectable, I must know something of “qualia” means.
People have earnestly claimed the same thing about various deities.
Of course they have. To believe in Zeus youmust know what “Zeus” means, and likewise to disbelieve in Zeus.
Do you believe in those?
HUh? Why are you asking?. I said “qualia” is meaningful. I also believe in qualia, but I don’t believe in qualia just because “qualia” is meaningful, I believe in qualia because I have them, as I have stated many times.
Why would your specific belief be true if theirs weren’t?
I don’t see Zeus, I do see colours. Do you find that confusing?
How would you determine that it is working? That if you’re seeing something red, the qualiometer says “red”?
Whatever. I am not saying there is a scientific explanation of qualia.
it can’t be subjectively true and false at the same time, depending on who you are.
I don’t know who is suggesting that.
It’s a logical consequence of claiming there is no objective fact about something.
That’s conflating two senses of “subjective”. Qualia are subjective in the sense that subjects can access their own qualia, but not other peoples.
But you can notice your own qualia.. anaesthesia makes a difference.
Again, I agree with you that subjective experience exists, but I don’t see why solutions to the Easy Problem wouldn’t satisfy you.
They don’t explain subjective experience. The Easy Problem is everything except subjective experience.
There’s something mysterious about subjective experience, but that’s true for everything, including atoms and electromagnetic waves and chairs and the rest of objective reality.
The fact that qualia are physically mysterious can’t be predicted from physics .. if physicalism is true, they should as explicable as the Easy problem stuff. That suggests physicalism is wrong.
You say you see colors and have other subjective experiences and you call those qualia and I can accept that, but when I ask why solutions to the Easy Problem wouldn’t be sufficient you say it’s because you have subjective experiences, but that’s circular reasoning. You haven’t said why exactly solutions to the Easy Problem don’t satisfy you, which is why I keep asking what kind of explanation would satisfy you. I genuinely do not know, based on what you have said. It doesn’t have to be scientific.
If we are talking about scientific explanation: a scientific explanation of X succeeds if it is able to predict X’s, particularly novel ones, and it doesn’t mispredict X’s.
But it’s not clear to me how you would judge that any explanation, scientific or not, does these things for qualia, because it seems to me that solutions to the Easy Problem do exactly this; I can already predict what kind of qualia you experience, even novel ones. If I show you a piece of red paper, you will experience the qualia of red. If I give you a drink or a drug you haven’t had before I can predict that you will have a new experience. I may not be able to predict quite exactly what those experiences will be in a given situation because I don’t have complete information, but that’s true for virtually any explanation, even when using quantum mechanics.
I suspect you may now object again and say, “but that doesn’t explain subjective experience”. Then I will object again and say, “what explanation would satisfy you?”, to which you will again say, “if it predicts qualia”, to which I will say, “but we can already predict what qualia you will have in a given situation”. Then you will again object and say, “but that doesn’t explain subjective experience”. And so on.
It looks to me like you’re holding out for something you don’t know how to recognize. True, maybe an explanation is impossible, but you don’t know that either. When some great genius finally does explain it all, how will you know he’s right? You wouldn’t want to miss out, right?
They don’t explain subjective experience. The Easy Problem is everything except subjective experience.
But this is the very thing in question. Can you explain to me how exactly you come to this conclusion? Having subjective experience does not in itself imply that it’s not physical.
The fact that qualia are physically mysterious can’t be predicted from physics
I’m genuinely curious what you mean by this. Can you expand on this?
You say you see colors and have other subjective experiences and you call those qualia and I can accept that, but when I ask why solutions to the Easy Problem wouldn’t be sufficient you say it’s because you have subjective experiences,
No it’s because the Easy Problem is , by definition ,everything except subjective experience. Its [consciousness-experience] explained [however], not [consciousness] explained [physically]. It happens to be the case that easy problems can be explained physically, but its not built into the definition.
Can you explain to me how exactly you come to this conclusion? Having subjective experience does not in itself imply that it’s not physical.
Because I’ve read the passages where Chalmers defines the Easy/ Hard distinction.
“What makes the hard problem hard and almost unique is that it goes beyond problems about the performance of functions. To see this, note that even when we have explained the performance of all the cognitive and behavioral functions in the vicinity of experience—perceptual discrimination, categorization, internal access, verbal report—there may still remain a further unanswered question: Why is the performance of these functions accompanied by experience? (1995, 202, emphasis in original).”
See? It’s not defined in terms of physicality!
Have you even read that passage before?
but that’s circular reasoning. You haven’t said why exactly solutions to the Easy Problem don’t satisfy you, which is why I keep asking what kind of explanation would satisfy you.
...an EP explanation isn’t it even trying to be an explanation of X for X=qualia.
It doesn’t have to be scientific.
If we are talking about scientific explanation: a scientific explanation of X succeeds if it is able to predict X’s, particularly novel ones, and it doesn’t mispredict X’s.
But it’s not clear to me how you would judge that any explanation, scientific or not, does these things for qualia, because it seems to me that solutions to the Easy Problem do exactly this;
Only by lowering the bar.
I can already predict what kind of qualia you experience, even novel ones.
Of course not …you can’t even express them.
If I show you a piece of red paper, you will experience the qualia of red.
I’m a colour blind super scientist , what is this Red?
If I give you a drink or a drug you haven’t had before I can predict that you will have a new experience. I may not be able to predict quite exactly what those experiences will be
Unfortunately , that’s what “predict novel experiences” means. CF other areas of science: you don’t get Nobels for saying “I predict some novel effect I cant describe or quantify”.
in a given situation because I don’t have complete information, but that’s true for virtually any explanation, even when using quantum mechanics.
The problem isnt that you don’t have infinite information, it’s that you are not reaching the base line of every other scientific theory, because “novel qualia , don’t ask me what” isn’t a meaningful prediction.
I suspect you may now object again and say, “but that doesn’t explain subjective experience”. Then I will object again and say, “what explanation would satisfy you?”, to which you will again say, “if it predicts qualia”, to which I will say, “but we can already predict what qualia you will have in a given situation”.
Not in a good enough way, you can’t.
Then you will again object and say, “but that doesn’t explain subjective experience”. And so on.
It looks to me like you’re holding out for something you don’t know how to recognize. True, maybe an explanation is impossible, but you don’t know that either. When some great genius finally does explain it all, how will you know he’s right? You wouldn’t want to miss out, right?
They don’t explain subjective experience.
The fact that qualia are physically mysterious can’t be predicted from physics
I’m genuinely curious what you mean by this. Can you expand on this?
I explained in the next clause, which you snipped:-
if physicalism is true, they [qualia] should as explicable as the Easy problem stuff.
The core issue is that there’s an inference gap between having subjective experience and the claim that it is non-physical. One doesn’t follow from the other. You can define subjective experience as non-physical, as Chalmer’s definition of the Hard Problem does, but that’s not justified. I can just as legitimately define subjective experience as physical.
I can understand why Chalmers finds subjective experience mysterious, but it’s not more mysterious than the existence of something physical such as gravity or the universe in general. Why is General Relativity enough for you to explain gravity, even though the reason for the existence of gravity is mysterious?
he core issue is that there’s an inference gap between having subjective experience and the claim that it is non-physical.
Of course there is. There is no reason there should not be. Who told you otherwise? Chalmers takes hundreds of pages to set out his argument.
Physical reductionism is compatible with the idea that the stuff at the bottom of the stack is irreducible, but consciousness appears to be a high level phenomenon.
Chalmers takes hundreds of pages to set out his argument.
His argument does not bridge that gap. He, like you, does not provide objective criteria for a satisfying explanation, which means by definition you do not know what the thing is that requires explanation, no matter how many words are used trying to describe it.
I know. Like I said, neither Chalmers nor you or anyone else have shown it plausible that subjective experience is non-physical. Moreover, you repeatedly avoid giving an objective description what you’re looking for.
Until either of the above change, there is no reason to think there is a Hard Problem.
Also., the existence of a problem does not depend on the existence of a solution.
Agreed, but even if no possible solution can ultimately satisfy objective properties, until those properties are defined the problem itself remains undefined. Can you define these objective properties?
All I’m asking for is a way for other people to determine whether a given explanation will satisfy you. You haven’t given enough information to do that. Until that changes we can’t know that we even agree on the meaning of the Hard Problem.
The meaning of the Hard Problem doesn’t depend on satisfying me, since I didn’t invent it. If you want to find out what it is, you need to read Chalmers at some point.
I’m describing how the process of explaining qualia scientifically would look.
Science isn’t based on exactly predermining an explanation before you have it.
Says who? If I can tell that qualia are indescribable or undetectable, I must know something of “qualia” means. One of the problems with the Logical Positivist theory of meaning is tha it can’t be the whole story.
I said we dont know how to measure qualia, not that some device might be measuring something else. One could test a qualiometer on oneself.
L
If you exclude qualiometers , entirely subjective approaches and a few other things, you can’t have a standard scientific explanation. You can still have a philosophical explanation, such as qualia don’t exist, qualia are non physical, etc.
But I’m not saying there is a scientific explanation of qualia
And if it is an objective fact that there is some irreducible subjectivity, it is clan objective fact that it doesn’t have a full scientific explanation.
I don’t know who is suggesting that.
But you can notice your own qualia.. anaesthesia makes a difference.
But then how you would know that a given explanation, scientific or not, explains qualia to your satisfaction? How will you be able to tell that that explanation is indeed what you were looking for before?
People have earnestly claimed the same thing about various deities. Do you believe in those? Why would your specific belief be true if theirs weren’t? Why are you so sure you’re not mistaken?
Could be, but we don’t know that.
How would you determine that it is working? That if you’re seeing something red, the qualiometer says “red”? If so, how would that show that there is something more going on than what’s explained with solutions to the Easy Problem?
It’s a logical consequence of claiming there is no objective fact about something.
Again, I agree with you that subjective experience exists, but I don’t see why solutions to the Easy Problem wouldn’t satisfy you. There’s something mysterious about subjective experience, but that’s true for everything, including atoms and electromagnetic waves and chairs and the rest of objective reality. Why does anything in the universe exist? It’s “why?” all the way down.
You keep asking the same question. If we are talking about scientific explanation: a scientific explanation of X succeeds if it is able to predict X’s, particularly novel ones, and it doesn’t mispredict X’s.
A scientific explanation of qualia is exactly that with X=qualia. It’s not a different style of explanation. It may well be impossible, but that’s another story.
As for a philosophical explanation...well, how do you know? You have some philosophical account, probably along the lines of qualia don;’t exist or aren’t meaningful, although you refuse to say which. So you have some criteria for judging that to be the best explanation.
Of course they have. To believe in Zeus youmust know what “Zeus” means, and likewise to disbelieve in Zeus.
HUh? Why are you asking?. I said “qualia” is meaningful. I also believe in qualia, but I don’t believe in qualia just because “qualia” is meaningful, I believe in qualia because I have them, as I have stated many times.
I don’t see Zeus, I do see colours. Do you find that confusing?
Whatever. I am not saying there is a scientific explanation of qualia.
That’s conflating two senses of “subjective”. Qualia are subjective in the sense that subjects can access their own qualia, but not other peoples.
They don’t explain subjective experience. The Easy Problem is everything except subjective experience.
The fact that qualia are physically mysterious can’t be predicted from physics .. if physicalism is true, they should as explicable as the Easy problem stuff. That suggests physicalism is wrong.
You say you see colors and have other subjective experiences and you call those qualia and I can accept that, but when I ask why solutions to the Easy Problem wouldn’t be sufficient you say it’s because you have subjective experiences, but that’s circular reasoning. You haven’t said why exactly solutions to the Easy Problem don’t satisfy you, which is why I keep asking what kind of explanation would satisfy you. I genuinely do not know, based on what you have said. It doesn’t have to be scientific.
But it’s not clear to me how you would judge that any explanation, scientific or not, does these things for qualia, because it seems to me that solutions to the Easy Problem do exactly this; I can already predict what kind of qualia you experience, even novel ones. If I show you a piece of red paper, you will experience the qualia of red. If I give you a drink or a drug you haven’t had before I can predict that you will have a new experience. I may not be able to predict quite exactly what those experiences will be in a given situation because I don’t have complete information, but that’s true for virtually any explanation, even when using quantum mechanics.
I suspect you may now object again and say, “but that doesn’t explain subjective experience”. Then I will object again and say, “what explanation would satisfy you?”, to which you will again say, “if it predicts qualia”, to which I will say, “but we can already predict what qualia you will have in a given situation”. Then you will again object and say, “but that doesn’t explain subjective experience”. And so on.
It looks to me like you’re holding out for something you don’t know how to recognize. True, maybe an explanation is impossible, but you don’t know that either. When some great genius finally does explain it all, how will you know he’s right? You wouldn’t want to miss out, right?
But this is the very thing in question. Can you explain to me how exactly you come to this conclusion? Having subjective experience does not in itself imply that it’s not physical.
I’m genuinely curious what you mean by this. Can you expand on this?
No it’s because the Easy Problem is , by definition ,everything except subjective experience. Its [consciousness-experience] explained [however], not [consciousness] explained [physically]. It happens to be the case that easy problems can be explained physically, but its not built into the definition.
Because I’ve read the passages where Chalmers defines the Easy/ Hard distinction.
“What makes the hard problem hard and almost unique is that it goes beyond problems about the performance of functions. To see this, note that even when we have explained the performance of all the cognitive and behavioral functions in the vicinity of experience—perceptual discrimination, categorization, internal access, verbal report—there may still remain a further unanswered question: Why is the performance of these functions accompanied by experience? (1995, 202, emphasis in original).”
See? It’s not defined in terms of physicality!
Have you even read that passage before?
...an EP explanation isn’t it even trying to be an explanation of X for X=qualia.
Only by lowering the bar.
Of course not …you can’t even express them.
I’m a colour blind super scientist , what is this Red?
Unfortunately , that’s what “predict novel experiences” means. CF other areas of science: you don’t get Nobels for saying “I predict some novel effect I cant describe or quantify”.
The problem isnt that you don’t have infinite information, it’s that you are not reaching the base line of every other scientific theory, because “novel qualia , don’t ask me what” isn’t a meaningful prediction.
Not in a good enough way, you can’t.
Then you will again object and say, “but that doesn’t explain subjective experience”. And so on. It looks to me like you’re holding out for something you don’t know how to recognize. True, maybe an explanation is impossible, but you don’t know that either. When some great genius finally does explain it all, how will you know he’s right? You wouldn’t want to miss out, right? They don’t explain subjective experience.
I explained in the next clause, which you snipped:-
if physicalism is true, they [qualia] should as explicable as the Easy problem stuff.
The core issue is that there’s an inference gap between having subjective experience and the claim that it is non-physical. One doesn’t follow from the other. You can define subjective experience as non-physical, as Chalmer’s definition of the Hard Problem does, but that’s not justified. I can just as legitimately define subjective experience as physical.
I can understand why Chalmers finds subjective experience mysterious, but it’s not more mysterious than the existence of something physical such as gravity or the universe in general. Why is General Relativity enough for you to explain gravity, even though the reason for the existence of gravity is mysterious?
Of course there is. There is no reason there should not be. Who told you otherwise? Chalmers takes hundreds of pages to set out his argument.
Physical reductionism is compatible with the idea that the stuff at the bottom of the stack is irreducible, but consciousness appears to be a high level phenomenon.
His argument does not bridge that gap. He, like you, does not provide objective criteria for a satisfying explanation, which means by definition you do not know what the thing is that requires explanation, no matter how many words are used trying to describe it.
The discussion was about whether there is a Hard Problem , not whether Chalmers or I have solved it.
I know. Like I said, neither Chalmers nor you or anyone else have shown it plausible that subjective experience is non-physical. Moreover, you repeatedly avoid giving an objective description what you’re looking for.
Until either of the above change, there is no reason to think there is a Hard Problem.
Like.I said, I don’t have to justify non physicalism when that is not.what the discussion is about.
Also., the existence of a problem does not depend on the existence of a solution.
Agreed, but even if no possible solution can ultimately satisfy objective properties, until those properties are defined the problem itself remains undefined. Can you define these objective properties?
Weve been through this.
You don’t have a non circular argument that everything is objective
It can be an objective fact that subjectivity exists.
All I’m asking for is a way for other people to determine whether a given explanation will satisfy you. You haven’t given enough information to do that. Until that changes we can’t know that we even agree on the meaning of the Hard Problem.
The meaning of the Hard Problem doesn’t depend on satisfying me, since I didn’t invent it. If you want to find out what it is, you need to read Chalmers at some point.