If you want people to ignore that layer of meaning you are asking them to ignore information. You are asking them to read less carefully.
In general this is a useful move, looking for an idealized version of what is being said, abstracted from irrelevant details. What is relevant depends on context. For example, a mathematical statement with a minor error should probably be understood to refer to its corrected version, which may be easy to find based on the surrounding discussion.
In the Martin Luther King/Gandhi example, the problem is not the idea of ignoring some of the details as irrelevant for the idealized version of the intended claim (about Jonah’s emotional state), but lack of convincing justification for their irrelevance for a different claim (about Jonah’s status on LW), a signal that is proving hard to disclaim. Even then it seems clear that these details are irrelevant for the intended claim and should be discarded from its idealized reading.
In general this is a useful move, looking for an idealized version of what is being said, abstracted from irrelevant details.
Depending on your goal it makes sense to focus on different information while reading. If you read a mathematical proof, status is completely irrelevant. It’s rational to completely ignore that layer.
If you read an article on a platform like this it’s useful to understand what’s driven the author. Jonah thinks that because he spend his 10,000 hours on training epistemic rationality people should pay more attention to his writing. Paying more attention to his writing means treating him as higher status. The status is not irrelevant for a reader because it influences how the reader spends his time.
To me it’s not a big issue. I usually don’t parse for status when reading LW posts. At the same time it’s there.
As far as I understand Jonah suggests that when people derivate from “mathematical style reasoning” that means they aren’t reading carefully. That it’s due to not having enough training in epistemic rationality.
the problem is not the idea of ignoring some of the details as irrelevant for the idealized version of the intended claim (about Jonah’s emotional state)
I parse the post as saying: “Jonah’s advanced skills in reasoning allowed him in a short amount of time to learn MLK style compassion.”
That would be evidence that suggests that Jonah is indeed having advanced skills in reasoning and thus deserving of a high status. High status that results in people spending more time reading and contemplating his posts.
I usually don’t focus on the status layer when I read LW either.
In this case Jonah not only intends to make a claim about his emotional state. He also makes a claim that MLK is just a human, which indicates that MLK abilities aren’t as impressive as people who hold him to be “more than a human” believe. Given that MLK is a political figure, that claim is even more problematic than it otherwise would be.
There’s also the claim that his emotional state is desirable and that it’s desirability means that other people should copy Jonah’s technique that gave Jonah that emotional state.
Careful reading means picking up those 3 claims in addition to the claim about Jonah’s emotional state. That’s very different then mathematical style reasoning. In a mathematical proof you only have to focus on explicitly made claims. If you just focus on Jonah’s emotional state and consider everything else insignificant I don’t think you are engaging with the substance of his post.
Of course that doesn’t means that it’s always important to engage with every claim that’s made. I usually don’t parse LW posts for status or focus on those claims.
I’m trying to clarify the issue by introducing the distinction between different implicit claims, so that relevance for each of these claims can be considered on its own. A reader may be interested in multiple claims, so that if a detail is relevant for one of them, it becomes relevant for the reader. But when it’s relevant for the reader, it may still be irrelevant for some of the claims. Talking about irrelevance for the reader collapses this distinction.
When Jonah is pointing to careful reading, that includes awareness of various claims that are being considered and relevance of presented details for each of them. Clarification may address uncertainty about these claims individually.
In general this is a useful move, looking for an idealized version of what is being said, abstracted from irrelevant details. What is relevant depends on context. For example, a mathematical statement with a minor error should probably be understood to refer to its corrected version, which may be easy to find based on the surrounding discussion.
In the Martin Luther King/Gandhi example, the problem is not the idea of ignoring some of the details as irrelevant for the idealized version of the intended claim (about Jonah’s emotional state), but lack of convincing justification for their irrelevance for a different claim (about Jonah’s status on LW), a signal that is proving hard to disclaim. Even then it seems clear that these details are irrelevant for the intended claim and should be discarded from its idealized reading.
Depending on your goal it makes sense to focus on different information while reading. If you read a mathematical proof, status is completely irrelevant. It’s rational to completely ignore that layer.
If you read an article on a platform like this it’s useful to understand what’s driven the author. Jonah thinks that because he spend his 10,000 hours on training epistemic rationality people should pay more attention to his writing. Paying more attention to his writing means treating him as higher status. The status is not irrelevant for a reader because it influences how the reader spends his time.
To me it’s not a big issue. I usually don’t parse for status when reading LW posts. At the same time it’s there. As far as I understand Jonah suggests that when people derivate from “mathematical style reasoning” that means they aren’t reading carefully. That it’s due to not having enough training in epistemic rationality.
I parse the post as saying: “Jonah’s advanced skills in reasoning allowed him in a short amount of time to learn MLK style compassion.” That would be evidence that suggests that Jonah is indeed having advanced skills in reasoning and thus deserving of a high status. High status that results in people spending more time reading and contemplating his posts.
I usually don’t focus on the status layer when I read LW either.
In this case Jonah not only intends to make a claim about his emotional state. He also makes a claim that MLK is just a human, which indicates that MLK abilities aren’t as impressive as people who hold him to be “more than a human” believe. Given that MLK is a political figure, that claim is even more problematic than it otherwise would be.
There’s also the claim that his emotional state is desirable and that it’s desirability means that other people should copy Jonah’s technique that gave Jonah that emotional state.
Careful reading means picking up those 3 claims in addition to the claim about Jonah’s emotional state. That’s very different then mathematical style reasoning. In a mathematical proof you only have to focus on explicitly made claims. If you just focus on Jonah’s emotional state and consider everything else insignificant I don’t think you are engaging with the substance of his post.
Of course that doesn’t means that it’s always important to engage with every claim that’s made. I usually don’t parse LW posts for status or focus on those claims.
I’m trying to clarify the issue by introducing the distinction between different implicit claims, so that relevance for each of these claims can be considered on its own. A reader may be interested in multiple claims, so that if a detail is relevant for one of them, it becomes relevant for the reader. But when it’s relevant for the reader, it may still be irrelevant for some of the claims. Talking about irrelevance for the reader collapses this distinction.
When Jonah is pointing to careful reading, that includes awareness of various claims that are being considered and relevance of presented details for each of them. Clarification may address uncertainty about these claims individually.