I suppose that you want your children to have knowledge at least comparable with a decent high-school student. And then, as adults they can decide whether they want to study at university, but they should be ready if they choose so. (This is what I would want for my children.) I have no experience with unschooling, because it’s illegal in my country, so maybe I’m missing something obvious, but here is what I imagine:
For simple things, like grades 1-4 of elementary school, teaching your children should be trivial, except that it takes a lot of time, and depending on their temper, perhaps a lot of patience. Probably not possible if both parents work full-time, but should be possible if one of them stays at home or works half-time.
For the rest of elementary school, and for high school, teaching your children is possible and not very dificult, but also not trivial. You would need some preparation; maybe there is a subject that you didn’t understand well at high school; maybe your children will want to learn a foreign language you don’t speak or something else outside of your competence (for many parents, computer science would be a good example). Good part is, your children can already read, so you just have to give them good materials and make sure they use it.
Still there is a problem of choosing the right studying materials. (In my opinion, this is a very important task of school system. Teaching per se is often done badly, some students would be better with a book and/or internet. Problem is, there is a lot of nonsense published, and as a total beginner you have problems to separate good resources from bad resources. Selecting the good resources and providing you with a top-level view is an important thing school does. Another good thing is contacting you with people who study the same thing at the same time.) How do you want to solve this part, especially in subjects which are not an area of expertise of neither you nor your wife? Though even for an expert it may be difficult to recommend a study material accessible for a newbie. First idea is Khan Academy, what else?
That sounds like homeschooling. The difference for unschooling is, you don’t use “learning resources”.
Kids who aren’t exposed to the soul-crushing institution that is school, will learn things on their own. Having someone around to help them learn how to use reference materials and teach them to read is a good idea, but that’s about all they need. Unschooled children tend to do better and be brighter than schooled children (though most of that might just be selection effects). I know several siblings who were unschooled, and they’re all very interesting, intelligent people who are very well-adjusted.
It’s particularly helpful if you bring them around and do whatever activities they’re interested in together.
Please note that I don’t overestimate the quality of school system (I was a teacher and then I quit, because I felt the system is hopeless), and I also do not underestimate natural curiosity, especially of a child that has intelligent parents, so is naturally exposed to talk about interesting topics. Here are my two pieces of evidence:
Montessori education is based on giving children great freedom, and only providing them interesting learning tools. Are you saying that removing those tools would make education even more efficient?
Internet is full of distractions. Many people on LW suffer from procrastination (see, we even have a special word for “spending all your time on internet, accomplishing nothing”). I thank Bayes for not having internet access when I was of school age. Today many children play online games all day long. What makes you think that a child will be able to resist all that?
Yeah, that’s the kind of thing we’d oppose with violence if necessary (though more likely by moving).
The legality of unschooling in the US varies mostly on a state-by-state basis. When compulsory schooling was first introduced in Massachusetts, there was armed resistance and the children ended up being marched off to school by soldiers. Fortunately, there are still some bastions of sanity—at least, in most places you can just fill out some “homeschooling” paperwork and they won’t bother you.
Good for you. Unfortunately, there’s no other state that would admit me, probably ever (unless I become very rich somehow). I have to live under laws I can’t really influence and just hope they don’t change too much for the worse. This is the situation for the great majority of world people.
Opposition with violence to your state sounds completely unrealistic, in any state, including the US. You yourself say that in MA the state sent in soldiers and won. Moving is plausible, of course.
Opposition with violence to your state sounds completely unrealistic, in any state, including the US.
It’s not unrealistic at all. It’s what the US was founded on. It’s why there exists the second amendment to the constitution. Yes, most revolutions will fail. But as far as we’re concerned, the proper response to a stranger trying to steal your children is “Over my dead body.”
Yes, most revolutions will fail. But as far as we’re concerned, the proper response to a stranger trying to steal your children is “Over my dead body.”
It’s a little ironic that the ‘defection’ here is the act of not having the “Over my dead body” reaction when successful defiance is not realistic. If other people go about doing suicidal defiance you get most of the deterrence benefits and at least get to live on and have more childeren!
It’s not unrealistic at all. It’s what the US was founded on.
And yet some states have passed mandatory education laws, which makes me assign a nontrivial probability to a future where more states will do so, until they all do or you find that you don’t wish to live in any of the rest.
Yes, most revolutions will fail
Given that, and given that resistance to this particular governmental intrusion has already failed in MA, and that there doesn’t seem to be very widespread popular support for such a resistance unless on principle (percentage of people who homeschool or unschool where legal today is low) - why do you still proclaim defiance?
Signalling defiance for deterrence is expected, but will you personally really risk your life and be jailed or otherwise punished, merely to make a public statement of protest—the most likely outcome?
Signalling defiance for deterrence is expected, but will you personally really risk your life and be jailed or otherwise punished, merely to make a public statement of protest—the most likely outcome?
Yes. It might be irrational—I might change my mind later. But in my opinion, if your children are being tortured, abused, raped, etc., then you do whatever you can to try to stop it, even risking your life. And knowing that parents really do say “Over my dead body” (with an implied “Over your dead body first”) when it comes to their children’s safety, really does make their children safer.
In my experience, unschooling is a great option. My wife and I plan to not do anything like school with our kids.
What learning resources will you use?
I suppose that you want your children to have knowledge at least comparable with a decent high-school student. And then, as adults they can decide whether they want to study at university, but they should be ready if they choose so. (This is what I would want for my children.) I have no experience with unschooling, because it’s illegal in my country, so maybe I’m missing something obvious, but here is what I imagine:
For simple things, like grades 1-4 of elementary school, teaching your children should be trivial, except that it takes a lot of time, and depending on their temper, perhaps a lot of patience. Probably not possible if both parents work full-time, but should be possible if one of them stays at home or works half-time.
For the rest of elementary school, and for high school, teaching your children is possible and not very dificult, but also not trivial. You would need some preparation; maybe there is a subject that you didn’t understand well at high school; maybe your children will want to learn a foreign language you don’t speak or something else outside of your competence (for many parents, computer science would be a good example). Good part is, your children can already read, so you just have to give them good materials and make sure they use it.
Still there is a problem of choosing the right studying materials. (In my opinion, this is a very important task of school system. Teaching per se is often done badly, some students would be better with a book and/or internet. Problem is, there is a lot of nonsense published, and as a total beginner you have problems to separate good resources from bad resources. Selecting the good resources and providing you with a top-level view is an important thing school does. Another good thing is contacting you with people who study the same thing at the same time.) How do you want to solve this part, especially in subjects which are not an area of expertise of neither you nor your wife? Though even for an expert it may be difficult to recommend a study material accessible for a newbie. First idea is Khan Academy, what else?
That sounds like homeschooling. The difference for unschooling is, you don’t use “learning resources”.
Kids who aren’t exposed to the soul-crushing institution that is school, will learn things on their own. Having someone around to help them learn how to use reference materials and teach them to read is a good idea, but that’s about all they need. Unschooled children tend to do better and be brighter than schooled children (though most of that might just be selection effects). I know several siblings who were unschooled, and they’re all very interesting, intelligent people who are very well-adjusted.
It’s particularly helpful if you bring them around and do whatever activities they’re interested in together.
This seems too good to be true.
Please note that I don’t overestimate the quality of school system (I was a teacher and then I quit, because I felt the system is hopeless), and I also do not underestimate natural curiosity, especially of a child that has intelligent parents, so is naturally exposed to talk about interesting topics. Here are my two pieces of evidence:
Montessori education is based on giving children great freedom, and only providing them interesting learning tools. Are you saying that removing those tools would make education even more efficient?
Internet is full of distractions. Many people on LW suffer from procrastination (see, we even have a special word for “spending all your time on internet, accomplishing nothing”). I thank Bayes for not having internet access when I was of school age. Today many children play online games all day long. What makes you think that a child will be able to resist all that?
Unfortunately this is illegal, here in Israel and in many other countries.
Yeah, that’s the kind of thing we’d oppose with violence if necessary (though more likely by moving).
The legality of unschooling in the US varies mostly on a state-by-state basis. When compulsory schooling was first introduced in Massachusetts, there was armed resistance and the children ended up being marched off to school by soldiers. Fortunately, there are still some bastions of sanity—at least, in most places you can just fill out some “homeschooling” paperwork and they won’t bother you.
Good for you. Unfortunately, there’s no other state that would admit me, probably ever (unless I become very rich somehow). I have to live under laws I can’t really influence and just hope they don’t change too much for the worse. This is the situation for the great majority of world people.
Opposition with violence to your state sounds completely unrealistic, in any state, including the US. You yourself say that in MA the state sent in soldiers and won. Moving is plausible, of course.
It’s not unrealistic at all. It’s what the US was founded on. It’s why there exists the second amendment to the constitution. Yes, most revolutions will fail. But as far as we’re concerned, the proper response to a stranger trying to steal your children is “Over my dead body.”
It’s a little ironic that the ‘defection’ here is the act of not having the “Over my dead body” reaction when successful defiance is not realistic. If other people go about doing suicidal defiance you get most of the deterrence benefits and at least get to live on and have more childeren!
And yet some states have passed mandatory education laws, which makes me assign a nontrivial probability to a future where more states will do so, until they all do or you find that you don’t wish to live in any of the rest.
Given that, and given that resistance to this particular governmental intrusion has already failed in MA, and that there doesn’t seem to be very widespread popular support for such a resistance unless on principle (percentage of people who homeschool or unschool where legal today is low) - why do you still proclaim defiance?
Signalling defiance for deterrence is expected, but will you personally really risk your life and be jailed or otherwise punished, merely to make a public statement of protest—the most likely outcome?
Yes. It might be irrational—I might change my mind later. But in my opinion, if your children are being tortured, abused, raped, etc., then you do whatever you can to try to stop it, even risking your life. And knowing that parents really do say “Over my dead body” (with an implied “Over your dead body first”) when it comes to their children’s safety, really does make their children safer.